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4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, Scott Smith, 8. Jan 2006 19:46


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By Eddy Lucast - Monday, February 11, 2008 7:08 AM
4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, Scott Smith, 8. Jan 2006 19:46
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Just curious... The late 1930's to 40's "west coast" heavy trucks I have encountered usually had a 4 speed main box and a 3 speed auxillary. The optimal combination in the 1950's was a 5 speed main and 3 speed auxillary. Then from about 1960 to 65 or so, it seemed that the 4 speed main and 4 speed auxillary was a popular choice; sometimes as "married" boxes. Finally, from the mid 60's through the mid 70's the 5 speed main box returned with the 4 speed brownie behind it until the 125-series Roadrangers pretty much put the twin-sticks out to pasture for all but the heaviest application (or the stubbornest operators).

My questions: when the 4 speed brownie became available in the late 1950's why didn't they go straight to the "5 and 4" set up instead of the "4X4 that seemed real common for a pretty short time? Also, the only "married boxes I have heard of were 4X4's -- did they ever do married 5X3 or 5X4 (other than Mack)?
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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, Dean Ashby, 8. Jan 2006 19:51
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We have an Autocar with a 5X3 married box.

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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, Stan Walls, 9. Jan 2006 13:19
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My '52 Pete has a 4 x 3 married box. It's not original to the truck tho.
Stan
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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, Frank Surber, 9. Jan 2006 14:18
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How about the 6x4 married 1 stick used by Kenworth in the 70's?
Frank in Kuwait
f_s482000@yahoo.com
http://frankinkuwait.bravehost.com
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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, Matt Swenson, 9. Jan 2006 14:50
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I didn't know they made a 6x4 married box. Must of been kinda odd? What exactly was the 14 speed? I've seen a couple of big powered trucks advertised with them.
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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, John Hanson, 9. Jan 2006 15:19
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I ran a couple trucks with the 14 speed Spicer and loved it! Basically it had a 5 speed shift pattern with a 4 speed airshift on the knob. You only used the lower 2 knob positions in all but the 4th and 5th holes, so you had 8 gears with only one lever move on the road. If it had any faults that I know of, it was that it was a bit noisey. We pulled some awful big loads and ran lots of power and I can't ever remember them giving any problems. You could cheat the lower 3 holes if you needed to as well, so they were pretty nice for starting a big load on a grade.
John H.
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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, Rick Knox, 9. Jan 2006 17:50
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My last two trucks before I got off the road had 14 speed Spicers in them. If you can't have two sticks their the next best thing. Once you learn how to play with them you can really cheat as John says. I moved the stick for the last time around 40 mph. From there to 100+ you just move the button. Of course I NEVER EVER, exceeded the posted speed limit. NO, REALLY.
Rick

If it doesn't have two sticks, you might as well drive an automatic!
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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, Too_Krazy, 9. Jan 2006 18:21
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So YOU'RE the one changing all the signs on the highway. I can still remember when the Maine turnpike changed the limit from 55 to 65. They took all the 55 signs down before they had the new 65 signs. When we got to the beginning of the turnpike there were no speed limit signs at all (normally each toll booth had one) so we asked what the speed limit was. Reply was "Do what you can" and we did. Found out top speed in the truck was about 3 mph less than the speedometer was marked. 4X4's don't go too fast. Wish I had my old Plymouth that day, it would do about 50 over the markings. Loved that old 400 big block.

DODGE is the perfect thing to put on the front of a truck.
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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, John Costley, 10. Jan 2006 02:25
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2K,
I remember that.That was a fun day,LOL.John.
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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, Too_Krazy, 10. Jan 2006 14:36
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It did make for a short trip from Kittery to Auburn. About 30 minutes if that.

DODGE is the perfect thing to put on the front of a truck.
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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, John Hanson, 9. Jan 2006 18:39
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If you hear of any around, Rick, I'd love to have another one!
John H.
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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, John Costley, 10. Jan 2006 02:30
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Had a few of the 14,16 and 20 speed spicers up here.Guys that had them loved them.Seems like most of the KTAs you saw ,and a few 3408s, always had the 20 speed behind them.Never heard any complaints besides weight and price, they never got real popular for those reasons.They would last alot of miles compared to a Roadranger, especially running heavy, but most got changed out because of high rebuild price.John.
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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, Bob Fischer, 10. Jan 2006 09:53
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In the late 70's, we ran COE Pete's w/16 speed Spicers behind 1693 and 3406 Cats. They were nice! I remember that the flag for the aux. had to rotate quite a ways from 4th to 1st....a little awkward. Nice set-up though.
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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, Jimmy Childers, 9. Jan 2006 18:37
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Well.......... Think about the speed limits and horsepower . Most rigs with a gas engine could run 35 to 45 in the late 30's and somewhere in the mid 40's ( after WW II ) they could run 40 to 50 . 75 to 100 HP in a gas engine was a lot back then . At 35 MPH and at 1800 RPM ( 6.14 rears,direct drive ) a driver could go a lot faster with OD . Now someone ( Autocar ?? ) had an overdrive tranny with about .78 OD . 35 MPH & .78 OD would go about 45 . With the 6.14 and 7.00 to one first gear it would start at ( 7x 6.14 ) 42.98 for a total reduction .If a truck had an aux it was usually direct and 1.5 low ( some 30's Fords had this with the 4 speed main ) . So some where along the line some one put one in a diesel to add an extra starting gear and they figgered out it would almost split main and 3rd gear ( on a 4th direct ) . Then a two speed axle was around and it helped alittle but was not positive shift on every shift ( this is why some had a stick shift instead of electric or air as vacuum was not on diesels ) . Anyway some of the basic thinking was just to have extra gears if needed because the splits were too far away ( .75 OD ; 1.33 under ) Then as the diesel and speed limits grew , more working gears were needed . The basic Spicer that was used in the KW and such military WW 2 wreckers was put in some diesel rigs with two speed rears . The OD gears were off ( .67; .69 ) and were usually for flat land running . Then spicer introduced the 3 speed Brown & Lipe aux with varied gears . Some were on hwy type 8031, ( 1.29,D, .75 ; or 2.59,D .75 ) and the most common that we still find in old iron, the 8031G or 1.29,D .84 . Now Off road people wanted more than the Military Diamond T 980 4x3 ( 5.19, 2.77,1.72 direct & 2.33,1.29 Direct ) that had a top speed of about 25. ANyway , 4x3 was a good combo until they tried the 5x3 and somewhere the Mack people had a NEW tranny , the 5x3 triplex with close ratios ( 8.88 to a OD of .85 )and no repeated gears like the spicer 5x3 . Spicer reinvented the 4 way brownnie with an extra gear that kinda competed with the Mack 5x3 with a 10.o low and .81 OD for a better overall reduction, with only one more gear .
Now , a Mack 5x3 with 5.3 rears had a starting total of 47 to 1 and 4.5 total top gears . The spicer 4x4 had only one more extra gear but had , with 5.29 rears , 52.9 total low and 4.28 total top gears with only 12 basic shifts ( compared to Macks 15 ) and you could use the low hole on the spicer as a highway gear .The Mack 5x4 box was a favorite with the double OD unit , so people put the spicer 5th OD with the 4th OD aux for a similar set up . My 58 Acar had a 5x4 but shifted like a duplex and was awkard at best , but for heavy hauling ,it was great , just don't get in a hurry . A friend /competitor had some Macks with the quad box and his trucks kinda got along better . Keep in mind , that air will freeze up if you do not bleed the tanks and this is why a lot of two stick units were favored in the cold country over the RR setup . Also keep in mind , not every rear ratio was available and buyers had to make things match to suit them . Mack seemed to have 5.6, 5.3, 5.15, 5.05 for the triplex and quad boxes . Other units had 6.17,5.91,5.57,5.29,4.88 4.63,4.33 during the 50's . I think KW offered the 5.91 with the standard RO 96 or with any 5x3 for a road truck . Fuller had a lot of funny ratios in the 40's & 50's in their 5x2,5x3,5x4 married boxes. I hope I have kinda answered your question . MY dad always wanted a 5& 2 speed rear with a brownie for winch work and a low hole if needed. OF course this was in 22 Whites or KB8 IH , or heaven forbid a 2 ton Chevy . Later when he bought the first diesel ( B61 , duplex ) he had to choose between a triplea and a duplex . The duplex won because he could not get the hang of the triplex .
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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, Scott Smith, 9. Jan 2006 22:24
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Thanks for the thorough reply -- you guys are great!


Scott Smith in Eugene, OR

Keep the window rolled down to listen for the straight stacks!
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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, Freightrain, 11. Jan 2006 13:40
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Wow Jimmy...gunno have to print that one out and read it a few times LOL!!!
Great information.

Larry
1959 B61 15 gears of twin stick, black smoke huff'n fun
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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, Rick Anderson, 11. Jan 2006 16:49
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I was readin Jimmy's comment about his dad always wanting a 5&2 speed with a brownie for winch work and a lower low. Back about 35 or so years when we put our wrecker on this chassis[picture] it was aR-190 with a 5&2. But in the old truck -wc-22 White - the winch was dirven off the tower on the 3 speed aux- so we put that in and had 5/2/3 - indeed did give an incredible low gear as well as having the versatility of having 5 different speeds for the winch drive.. I've been lookin and measuring about maybe buying that trans and power tower formy truck, but the winch is mounted farther back on mine and wouldn't have any room for the last driveshaft, so without major modification that idea an't gonna work
Rick/mn
Proud to be a Swede, but won't be driving a Volvo!!

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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, Dean Ashby, 11. Jan 2006 17:37
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Mount the Brown-Lipe and run a small drive shaft back to the winch.

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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, Frank Surber, 12. Jan 2006 09:32
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And if that is not feasable mount a couple of bearings and run a Jack shaft chain driven bfrom the tower and up to the winch. should run a triple row chain though.like 3-60 3/4 inch or 3-80 1inch.
Frank in Kuwait
f_s482000@yahoo.com
http://frankinkuwait.bravehost.com
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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, Dean Ashby, 12. Jan 2006 13:09
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Why would you run a tripple row chain on a truck that size?
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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, Too_Krazy, 12. Jan 2006 13:45
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Because a trio has better harmony singing than a duet. LOL

DODGE is the perfect thing to put on the front of a truck.
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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, Dan Espinosa, 12. Jan 2006 22:02
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on 12. Jan 2006 13:45 Too_Krazy wrote:
> Because a trio has better harmony singing than a duet. LOL
>
Now I know how you got your name! Dan E.
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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, Frank Surber, 12. Jan 2006 14:03
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The tripple row chain has nothing to do with the size of the truck but the load that a winch can develop. Could just be a personal prefrerance but I like for the weakest thing in a winching situation the be the amount of restance the of object I am winching
also even if a smaller chain is used like a 3-50 5/8 ths the looks of it is much more impressive. a smaller size 3 row will take higher RPMs that a larger 2 or single row of the same design HP.
Have rigged plenty of Tulsa 64 and the braden equilivelant 64,000 to 120,000 bare drum pull with double or 2-120 chain or tripple row 3-100 the tripple even though smaller will out last the double.
besides, a 3 row has a massive look to it.
Frank in Kuwait
f_s482000@yahoo.com
http://frankinkuwait.bravehost.com
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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, John Costley, 13. Jan 2006 03:36
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A little overkill goes a long ways for reduced failure and maintenace.Better to have more than enough rather than just enough.John.
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Re: 4X3, 5X3, 4X4, 5X4 Transmissions, Frank Surber, 13. Jan 2006 03:55
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Another thing John is if running from power tower he has 5 speeds from the main and can have some high rpm's on the shaft ahd chain for this reason I like using the smaller pitch chain with multiple strands can get the same design HP requierments and keep the spin weight down larger pitch chain needs to go slower and have larger diameter sprockets.
Frank in Kuwait
f_s482000@yahoo.com
http://frankinkuwait.bravehost.com
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