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1968 KW K-123 Cummins NTC 335 top end freshen up

Posted By Tattoo Saturday, June 01, 2019 4:51 PM
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Tattoo
 Posted Saturday, June 01, 2019 4:51 PM
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I've been living with some coolant seeping from the head gaskets(?) on the old Kenny for a while now and have decided it's time to try to tackle the problem and make a few upgrades while I'm at it. I'll attach a few pics as evidence. What I've had is coolant seeping from between cylinder heads 2 and 3 and running down either side of the engine block. Over the course of about 1000 miles, I'll lose roughly a gallon of coolant. The water temp never goes above 170 degrees under any circumstances. The coolant leak is annoying though and I'd like to be able to seal it up. Any input from folks that have dealt with this before will be highly appreciated.

While I'm at it, I plan to install a set of 25B Jake Brake housings. I have managed to procure a complete set and have rebuilt the housings and installed new solenoids. Pics of those to follow.

I'm also planning on replacing the exhaust manifold as it is cracked and leaks and I'm searching for an intake manifold with aftercooler as an upgrade for my non aftercooled intake. Any thoughts out there on the intake swap? I guess specifically I'm wondering about proper coolant routing through the aftercooler.

I did go ahead and pull all 3 cylinder heads off last weekend. Any common problem areas I should be paying close attention to?http://forums.aths.org/Uploads/Images/e530cda9-3909-4b78-afc9-c39d.jpghttp://forums.aths.org/Uploads/Images/55e16a26-395d-4ae0-a84c-545a.jpghttp://forums.aths.org/Uploads/Images/f9bf6285-bdc9-4175-8546-86c4.jpg
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Two-Books
 Posted Saturday, June 01, 2019 5:20 PM
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Hopefully you are aware that your water lose problem quite likely won't be solved by changing just the head gaskets. The predominant problem is usually water getting past the liners at the counterbore which won't changed with new head gaskets. Best check to see how loose the liners are in the block then go from there.

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Geoff Weeks
 Posted Sunday, June 02, 2019 1:56 AM
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I 2nd the loose liner as the problem. Glenn Akers taught me trick for checking them
Place large channel lock pliers in the bore and side of the block to squeeze the liner sideways, if you see any movement or antifreeze/oil squeezed out between the liner and the block, you have loose liners.
If that is the case only counterbore machine work will cure it.
Another thing that helps (but will not cure anything, but will prevent future problems) is to run a tap through all the head bolt holes, and blow out any crap, before assembly.
terry sillik
 Posted Sunday, June 02, 2019 7:28 AM
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Geoff Weeks (6/2/2019)
I 2nd the loose liner as the problem. Glenn Akers taught me trick for checking them
Place large channel lock pliers in the bore and side of the block to squeeze the liner sideways, if you see any movement or antifreeze/oil squeezed out between the liner and the block, you have loose liners.
If that is the case only counterbore machine work will cure it.
Another thing that helps (but will not cure anything, but will prevent future problems) is to run a tap through all the head bolt holes, and blow out any crap, before assembly.
Geoff I always that tap and blow out was standard on any head removal? terry
Two-Books
 Posted Sunday, June 02, 2019 12:32 PM
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Hard to tell with the liner thing, along with loose liners there could be cracked counterbores...cracks out to the headbolts....its a guessing game unless the liners are pulled and things cleaned up and inspected. Only once in many teardowns did I ever see a water passage grommet issue.

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Tattoo
 Posted Sunday, June 02, 2019 2:04 PM
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Thanks to you gentlemen for your input. After reading your posts I did a closer inspection and did indeed find a loose liner at cylinder 5. I tried the channelock technique that Geoff suggested and it did reveal a slight wiggle and some fluid bubbles between the #5 liner and the block. All of the other liners appear tight and dry. I also discovered a crack in the deck of the block between the liners for cylinders 5 and 6. The crack is visible in the pics that I'm attaching to this post.

As of right now, I don't believe I have any appetite to spend a whole lot more time or money trying to resolve what started out as an annoying slow http://forums.aths.org/Uploads/Images/670084b2-1feb-481e-a227-7dcc.jpghttp://forums.aths.org/Uploads/Images/8b500bbe-5792-4500-84c0-f495.jpgcoolant leak. I have a new head gasket set and new head bolts. I'm inclined to clean everything up the best I can and reassemble it.

Two questions come to mind...

What is the correct repair for my engine block troubles?

Is there any type of sealant that can be applied to the block deck as a band-aid type repair?
Geoff Weeks
 Posted Sunday, June 02, 2019 2:30 PM
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I was in your boat and tried just about everything, long and short if only one hole is bad you could over bore for oversize upper press fit liners, if more then a few need work, bore them all for lower press fits.
I can't see the crack, but my eyes aren't the best.
Sooner rather than later, it will start using more than a gal every 1000.
Likely cheaper to buy a used engine.
Two-Books
 Posted Sunday, June 02, 2019 4:08 PM
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It would appear from your photos that one of the head bolt holes has had an insert installed in the past. It's one of those things that's all or nothing, if it's a toy or hobby I think you could gasket er up and go for now. I know when at Cummins in the 70's they had a sealer that they approved of and if memory serves me right it was called Ceramiseal but it's been a long time. Good luck with your project and as Jeff said keep an eye out for a decent used drop in that may fill the bill in the future. One other thing I noticed when looking at the first photo that along with the headbolt insert it looks as though the counterbore at the right has at one time been sleeved also, which you may have interpreted as a crack. You seemed to have done an excellent job cleaning up for your gasket replacement....be careful not to nick or damage the fire ring on the edge of the liner, one other thing we always did was take a clean rag and some methyl hydrate and wipe off the block and head surface to insure a good seal with respect to the water grommets. 👍

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Monday, June 03, 2019 11:44 AM by Two-Books
Tattoo
 Posted Monday, June 03, 2019 2:35 PM
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Thanks for taking a look and giving good advice. I plan on updating this thread as I go and posting more pics over the next few weeks. Please keep an eye on it!
Tattoo
 Posted Sunday, July 28, 2019 3:17 PM
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I've been meaning to post an update for a while. I've put a lot of hours in and we're approaching the finish line on this project. I'm adding this purely for entertainment purposes. I hope some of you folks enjoy reading this and looking at some of my pics.

Knowing full well that I have one loose liner and several head bolt inserts in the engine block, I decided to clean things up the best I can and hope for the best. I ran into a handful of issues and feel like I solved them reasonably well. Time will tell.

My strategy has been to clean the block well, run a tap through and blow out all of the head bolt holes in the block (as suggested by Geoff Weeks), apply a ring of Indian Head gasket sealer on the block deck around each cylinder liner, and install all new head gaskets and 36 new head bolts.

I had 2 head bolts on the front cylinder head break loose as I was approaching torque spec. of 280 ft. lbs. The head bolts are all new, so the problem was with the threads in the block. After doing a lot of cursing and a little research, I discovered that there are roughly 1/2 an inch of unused threads in the bottom of the holes in the block that the 6.5 inch small cam head bolts don't reach. I ordered two N14 headhttp://forums.aths.org/Uploads/Images/afc137ee-450a-4ac4-a224-88ca.jpghttp://forums.aths.org/Uploads/Images/733cf43f-80eb-4451-83db-d6c8.jpghttp://forums.aths.org/Uploads/Images/5d1490e4-406a-4759-9671-38c3.jpghttp://forums.aths.org/Uploads/Images/9fcaa12c-10a8-4fb8-acae-34af.jpg bolts that are 7.25 inches long and have a longer threaded section than the small cam bolts. With a little measuring and cutting on the N14 bolts, I was able to torque them to 280 ft. lbs. like all the others.

I've added a fully rebuilt set of Jake 25b brake housings, a new exhaust manifold and about 15 cans of Cummins beige engine paint. If it runs as good as I think it looks, I'll be pleased.

And now for the evidence...

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